Robert Oeschler tape-recorded an interview on MJ-12 with Bobby Ray Inman, who was Deputy Director of the CIA (DDCI) from 1981 to 1982 and Director of Naval Intelligence as well as the National Security Agency (NSA). Inman stated, that MJ-12 meant something to him and that he knew about the program before his retirement public indoctrination in matters surrounding UFOs.

02.08.2002/XNUMX/XNUMX interview with Robert Emenegger (co-producer) and with Alan Sandler from the 1975 government-sponsored UFO documentary titled UFOs, past, present and future. Emenegger also provided this document Steven Spielberg, who incorporated the landing scene from his film into the documentary Close encounters of the third species.

Grant Cameron: I've been posting two stories on the internet and they're both about you, so I wanted to check with you on a few things.

Robert Emenegger: Sure

GC: One thing I'm posting is - you've claimed it as yours in your book CIA memo.

RE: Sure. Huh-huh.

GC: I got it from Jacques Vallee and it's published as a historical document with everything. My question to you about this is - How did you find out it was a CIA report? What is the story of how you perceived it?

RE: I think his name was Mendinhall. Is it right?

GC: The name means nothing to me.

RE: It was the author because I spoke to him on the phone.

GC: Lundahl? Arthur Lundahl?

RE: Lundinhall. No – it's just Lundahl, isn't it?

GC: Yes. Arthur Lundahl.

RE: Yes. I kept thinking it was like Lundenhall. Because I talked to him on the phone about that number one. Bob Friend told me about it, you know, and I think Coleman confirmed it, so I have no reason for people like that to tell me about it, and I asked the man himself if he would appear in the special. He was really uncomfortable about it. He just didn't want to do it.

GC: Are you talking about Lundahl from the CIA?

RE: Yes. Huh Huh.

GC: What did you see – handwritten or typed?

RE: It appears to have been handwritten for me - that's how I remember it. If Jacques had a copy of it, that's good enough for me.

GC: But you got it from J. Allen Hynk, right?

RE: I got it from – who did I originally get it from, you ask?

GC: Yeah.

RE: I think it was Bob Friend who brought it up because he was involved with it for the Air Force. The Air Force was called in because it was a UFO incident.

GC: But an actual copy. I think I have 11 pages. It is written by hand. Is that the one you used in your book?

RE: Definitely the info I used.

GC: But you didn't see the document that mentioned the CIA?

RE: I don't recall it being titled as CIA.

GC: There is some confusion. I have a story that J. Allen Hynek saw it in Friend's office.

RE: That's probably correct.

GC: And he wrote it down in his own hand.

RE: It's very possible now because I'm really - you know - we had so many other things to discuss at the time. I didn't focus on that, except to let Bob Friend tell the story and tell me along with Hynk—those involved, that's how I knew about it. It's not like I'm a researcher. This was probably never explained to anyone, but I was given all the information.

GC: And Lundahl basically confirmed that?

RE: Yes, because I said, “I'd like you to participate. We will talk about that incident. Would you be on camera?” He kind of got – he said well “No, he didn't want to. Now that's a little awkward. There are still some agents here. He said: “Some agents are still working and I think that was the essence of it. I really can't tell you much more about it except that it was an absolute incident confirmed all along. I don't think Bob Friend walked through the halls of that CIA building, which was a parking lot, and told this whole story, so I have to assume that those people who were involved are talking - but I don't remember anyone making up the story.

GC: And Coleman basically agreed with that as well?

RE: Everyone had a chance. In fact, you know, one of our agreements was to go through the script at the Pentagon, and if there was a question about anything, they had the right to ask. Strangely, no one even questioned the Holloman AFB landing thing. It was like, “Okay.” I thought it was very interesting.

GC: A question I didn't want to ask you, but now that you've brought it up. What was your impression of what was happening then?

RE: You mean from the beginning?

GC: How do you feel about getting people like Coleman to come up with these outlandish stories? What was their real role? What were they trying to do?

RE: Well, how do you know? I was not religious, and neither was my partner. I'm sure you know all this. We went to Norton Air Force Base to discuss other things, among them 3D moving holography, laser and cancer, all the advances in research and development - ARPA type projects and the UFO thing was introduced to us. I couldn't believe it, but I said, OK, I'll go along with it, and one conversation led to another, a contact with the Pentagon. Everyone couldn't be more open to what we do. Anyone in that line could have asked and said, as I expected, “What the hell are you talking about?” That included George Weinbrenner, if you recall.

GC: Was he involved at the beginning or later?

BE: No, everything developed. One would call the other. For example, Coleman said "Wait" while we were sitting in his office. He called George and said, “Do you want to talk to these guys?” I think a day later we went down to the bunker and met George there. We couldn't—I think I was pretty straightforward. My first question was, "What about the craft landing at Holloman Air Force Base?"

He kind of said, “Well, I'll tell you that, and then we went off and talked about the Soviets, non-stop. I'm sure I had to express that in the book. He talked about everything - spying on the Soviets, weather changes, that was the concern. Then he said, “I have the best scientists working on counter-strategies for weather change.” I don't remember if I had a partner with me or if I was just sitting there by myself. I do not remember. Then he said the scientists liked it and he put this book in my lap and opened it and it said, “To my good friend General George Weinbrenner. By Dr. Allen Hynk.” The book was about UFOs. It had nothing to do with the weather, as if to say, “Ah. I know what you're talking about.” It was just amazing. It was like a Kafka play.

GC: Another question I had was about a living alien. This is related to Swan, which I worked on for 20 years.

RE: Someone told a very interesting story about Swan and her background. I can't remember where it was, but it gave a lot more insight into the psyche of the woman. I don't know if you wrote it or someone else.

GC: Yes. The Canadians looked at her and I think Naval Intelligence and then you had the Central Intelligence aspect. As for whether they followed it up, I'm not too sure.

RE: Well, as I get further into it, I see a single Chief of Naval Intelligence. One was very susceptible or interested in all this. Maybe it messed with his feelings about what he was doing. The only thing that was absolutely amazing to me was that they asked those three questions. I don't know? Are they in a written document?

GC: Yes. Are you talking about this with Catholics?

RE: Yes, do you favor any or will there be a third world war? We can see a vehicle or a spaceship and then apparently everyone goes to the window. I assume that's how it's reported.

GC: Yes. It's in the note.

RE: He seems to see something. I'm not going to say it looked like they said they saw something and asked for radar confirmation and the fact that this quadrant was blocked by radar. I think it was pretty hairy.

GC: And Lundahl indirectly confirmed to someone that he saw this thing from the window

RE: And maybe you know how the dust settled and it was a few years later when I talked to him, he probably recalled, “Oh my God, no, I don't want that. They'll think I'm a nut.

GC: He was reputed to have one of the largest collections of UFO books around. A researcher I knew saw them and said it was one of the largest collections of UFOs he had ever seen.

RE: Oh he did!

GC: He was in it, but because of his position he had to stay out of the limelight.

RE: You know, if you tend to believe certain things, sometimes you tend to fill in the blanks. I know Bob Friend said the Air Force wants to develop it more. He went to his commanding officer, who said, "Forget it, I'm taking it from here." He never learned what happened next.

GC: And the living alien is another. . .

RE: That baffles me. I don't know what you mean by living alien.

GC: Well, the whole story—I have about 12 references starting in 1951 when the government came forward and told this story that they had a flying saucer that had crashed and that an alien had survived. I think you were offered an interview.

HE: I was.

GC: Yeah.

RE: Well, I'll tell you something. Something happened. I thought it was very bizarre. I didn't particularly believe it. Paul Shartle, who by the way died in a car accident with his wife I would say a year ago. It would help a lot. I tried to get hold of Hal Puthoff - do you know Hal?

GC: Indirectly.

RE: I tried to get him to talk to Shartle because I always try to answer for others. I did the same with Coleman. I said, "Call him!" I don't want to interpret anything. But Paul Shartle once asked me if I'd be interested in going down to like New Mexico, meeting some aliens. It sounds like what you're talking about, although it never happened. I remember that strange event. I didn't even think it would happen if you're talking about it.

GC: I think it was the late eighties.

RE: (laughs) Yeah. That is right.

GC: Linda Howe was offered and so was Whitley Strieber.

RE: Do you want to come down and meet.

GC: Most of them were not supposed to meet the alien. They were to meet what they called the "guardians" of the living alien. It was some guy who was a captain and was now a colonel. One of the stories was that he was in poor health and they were going to arrange this interview and be able to talk to this person who was living with this alien.

RE: I've heard all this and the thing that really confuses me. Like who instigated it? I know who started this with me. It was Paul Shartle. But who incited Linda Howe. You know?

GC: The government keeps coming in and throwing these things in our laps. Yours was the most important because they shut down Blue Book in 1969, which meant this big PR problem that they had for 20 years that they were desperately trying to get out of. They're trying to blow up the UFO thing. Suddenly he gets rid of it. They will never have to deal with it again, so why would they suddenly come to you two or three years later and start telling you these bizarre stories about the landing. They didn't have to.

RE: I think not either. It was out of the blue that I came near it, and you know there was Colonel Lane at Norton—when I was sounding out with Shartle. I said, “Shartle, you made this whole thing up or where you're doing it yourself or something. He said, “Well, Colonel Lane, who is OSI, kind of suggested it.” When I called Lane, who I met, he said, “Oh, Shartle is full of stories!

Oh, man. It's so cloudy when you're trying to get whatever information you're trying to trace. Now you know—I don't know if it was in the book, maybe not—that I met Bob Scott and Miller during the Reagan administration

GC: Two generals? (one was a general and the other a PH.D)

RE: At Norton they wanted another program like we did and we spent a lot of time discussing. Bob Scott was appointed by Reagan. When I first met him, he was head of the U.S.—  Bruce Herschensohn  he was deputy special assistant to the president from 1972 to 1974 - I don't know if you know who Bruce was in Washington. That's how I knew him. Then he appeared as the head of DAVA - that movie repository. He had retired General Glen E. Millar as his adjutant or second in command. We spent a lot of discussions. There were a lot of things in the safe that he wanted to get out. I even had General Miller come to our house to meet Hynk and his group to take them to Norton to look around. Even Miller said some bizarre things. He walks around the room and says, "Well, they're voice activated." This prompts Hynek to say "What the hell?" Hynek says, "What is it?"

Apparently he said he saw a craft in which they are activated or controlled by voice or hand. I don't remember which one it was. This was so bizarre. Miller was, interestingly enough, the head of one of the studios in Hollywood—one of the old ones. Won Reagan his first contract. So there were these weird connections. I met Miller and Scott like at Denny's. It was like, "Let's meet at Denny's and talk about it."

I thought it was fascinating, but I never - well, anyway, after Hynek came in and wanted to see the UFO footage, and I think they started pulling it out, and Shartle came in - now I hope you have the characters fixed. Miller told him, "I want you to show Hynk all the UFO footage."

Shartle told me he said, “I'm sorry sir, you know – you'll have to give me a written request for that.

The reply came back, "Listen, I'll get your ass." You will."

I wasn't there to know all the craziness that went down, but I do know that three months later, Casper Weinberger sent a cable removing both Scott and Miller from their positions. Why I don't know. I don't even know if it was related.

GC: Interesting because I'm going to the Reagan Library next month and I can check it out.

RE: Would they list anything about Scott and Miller?

GC: If there was correspondence from Casper Weinberger, it should be there.

RE; I saw whatever was in the note. . .that would be in the eighties, mid eighties. I found it very interesting. They said the reasons were that they wanted to, I don't know - condense things. That being said, I kept thinking, “Do you think it had anything to do with the UFO research? I don't know.

GC: Why did it fall apart because these guys were fired?

RE: Well, I was waiting for them to get going and I was ready. We were ready to go. Meantime. Interestingly, I knew they were interested in terrorism, so I went to MGM with them and we discussed getting a film called "The Last Resort" or something like that - a British film with the SAS. Make sure it's shown to all the soldiers. I just went to see if, and I thought I'd do a special on terrorism one day, and they worked together. I put a bunch together—I'm not a producer now, so you know—when you're a creative person, you get trampled by business people. I could never quite put it together. Then I waited for anything to wait for, I kept the thing that it was Reagan. Is he the one who cares about all this? They would never say.

I can't imagine two men - responsible men - who were in positions of responsibility who, along with some weird gag, would have gotten more information about UFOs. That does not make sense. Every time I talk to Hal Puthoff, he says, "What's behind this?"

It's some way to get it on the flagpole, or make the Soviets think we've got something. Maybe it has nothing to do with UFOs.

GC: That's why I thought your case was so important. Take Bill Moore, after he published the book Roswell, he got numerous contacts with a lot of things that ended up going nowhere. Then you can tell his misinformation to obfuscate the material he puts out. In your case it was very bizarre because there was nothing you could say was misinformation. Why drop people when the whole project was shut down? In 1972 there was nothing. It was Deadsville.

RE: Although I was told that at the time. There was a mysterious person named Alfonso Lorenzo who allegedly informed Shartle of the materials being passed through. We finally got his phone number and I gave it to my partner Allan Sandler. About a year or two later we thought why don't we call the guy. We couldn't find the phone number. He was one of them. I don't know—clouds drifting by or something. It really is.

As for Bill Moore. I had already met Bill Moore and read his articles on Roswell. At the time I first read when they first came out. The papers were tied up. It just didn't make sense to me at the time and then the story grew and grew. In fact, Corso, who knew nothing about UFOs as far as I could see, came back to our house. Do you know which one it is?

GC: Yes. Was that before he wrote the book?

RE: Yes. He came with a film writer I knew and asked questions like someone who is interested in UFOs but knows nothing about them. He said, “I found something in my drawer.” It was a picture of an alien or something. I thought, "Now this is interesting."

Then he suddenly becomes a man in "The Day After Roswell." He was here. I think he was driven by wanting to make some money for his grandkids or something because what he said was so baseless in my opinion.

GC: His book material

RE: Yeah, I didn't even read it. All I know is that he didn't see any bodies and he didn't have any things in the drawers. He would say something about it. He specified and I don't know. It could have been the publisher Birnes or something. It made me very angry, and yet Hall Puthoff kind of trusted him. I thought how? It's like when you know someone and you've been talking to them and then all of a sudden or all of a sudden they become this great expert. Where does it come from?

GC: But people like Coleman. You got the impression that Coleman knew what was going on.

RE: I think so. Not only did he know the fact, as I tried to express, that he first tried to give us a song and dance, that we could be fined and jailed if we got into something we shouldn't. Then we went to the inner office at the Pentagon and then we said, “How do I tell you. I chased a UFO in a B-25 with my crew.” He went into great detail. I don't think anyone would make that up. (Laughter)

He said I reported it back to Blue Book and it never showed up in Blue Book. Maybe because of his position. The assumption is that you will be in touch with the press and they will say, "Of course you believe in UFOs".

But Bill Moore I really thought was full of it. He was self-congratulatory. You said something about them doing disinformation. And all that stuff about meeting people. We will meet with someone and you will have the opportunity to see this film for five minutes. The thing I told people is - that never happened with what we did. Everything we did was like dealing with traders you know. Sit down and discuss it. No calls or anything in the middle of the night. I keep thinking. Where do these people get these stories. You would know if you were a writer.

I tried to help Puthoff, who is just hungry to find an answer. All I can do is tell him everything I know and direct him to people who can answer it better than I can.

GC; Well, you have a number of experiences. Have you ever dealt with people from Disney?

RE: I can't believe it! Puthoff sent me a message. It was well said, you and Disney are mentioned in the same thing. I didn't know what he meant, but I read the article. Isn't it weird that Allan Sandler, my partner, and I met at Disney? We talked to him, but again what he told us about his experience seemed like he didn't really know much. So I do not know. I do not know what to say. Now Disney may have done some projects, I don't know if that's true. Maybe you know more than I do.

GC: Or he could have been in the same position as you because he really didn't know what was going on. My impression of what's going on is that they can't really release anything concrete, but if they release things they can pull it back indirectly through you and through the different stories they tell people. For example, a living story about aliens. They have told this story to different researchers at least 40 times over the past 12 years.

RE: You know something. Timothy Good interviewed me once and then I saw his book and he talked about seeing a live alien or something. I really got a kick out of it. I never said anything like that. He also quoted Coleman as saying. You know that Air Force document that was published in his book, the first paragraph of which was correct, and then he somehow made up the second paragraph about how the USAF should handle the UFO situation? He had to apologize for that. He never apologized for saying I saw a live alien. If everyone would be straightforward and only print what is the absolute truth – that they know to be true, I think the whole field might dry up.

GC: Based on what you saw. Have they ever shown you a movie?

RE: Some. Clip. And I had--how I knew that whatever this being had landed at Holloman Air Force Base, he had a draftsman sitting with him along with my partner. They went over what Shartle had described over and over. They said the film had been kicking around in Norton for some time. He drew—I had no idea—he drew what Shartle told him. Later on, this alien who was drawn with a sort of Samaritan nose, which got everyone very excited, except that Arren - which is the one - is one of the senators from the eastern states, was watching a program where we were talking about it. He demanded an investigation, so they tried to seize Norton Air Force Base to get a copy of the press.

A new regime prevailed. The ones I dealt with weren't even there. Scott and Miller weren't even there anymore. So they couldn't answer the question. Shartle told me that they checked its print and that when he saw it much closer, it really didn't have a hooked nose. They had something over their nose, like a little mask. Well, I do not know. Believe me. As I said, this is Kafka's time. My wife just thought we were being used for some purpose.

That was at the end of the Nixon era when we were doing that project. I was, as you call it, recruited by Nixon's re-election committee to work on Nixon's re-election campaign from a film perspective. I knew Bob Haldeman, and I keep things that I don't think he had anything to do—that Allen and I would be asked to do this project. But maybe all they did was open the door so we never checked in when we went anywhere. You know, we went into the Pentagon and they didn't necessarily want me to sign in, which is maybe a technique that they can say we don't know anything about.

GC: Denial.

RE: Possibly yes. If there is anything else, I am happy to share.

GC: Did you say that with Haldeman?

RE: Yes, yes. In Los Angeles and he was kind of out of it and he said well I heard about it. That's all he said. What does it mean? That's probably what everyone says.

GC: Yes, if he wasn't in the loop.

RE: Yes. I don't think he knew about it. Nixon, I don't know if he knew. Now Reagan I feel I have a personal interest. Maybe that's what got his two friends Bob Scott and Miller to look into it, or maybe they were interested in it personally. I really don't know.

You'd think that people in relatively respectable positions wouldn't mess with things like this. Have you found that this applies to other people as well? For example, I know that Linda Howe was cheated on…

GC: Dots. You have never been in contact with Doty

RE: I've never been, but I had them tracked down. I said, "Who's that guy?" So Norton Air Force Base, because they have a government computer that's not for the public, but they tracked him down because I kept saying, "Who is he?" They said, "It appears to be sergeant.” He was on leave or on leave in Germany at the time before I could find out much more about him. I was just curious. What is he doing with that girl around him? I told Linda she should be careful because she is attractive. Guys are likely to say anything.

GC: He went after everyone like Whitley Strieber.

RE: Oh, right?

GC: He told the living story of the alien and told the Holloman story, except he changed the date to 1964.

RE: That's another thing that confuses me. Someone from one of these magazines called me and I told them the whole story and gave them the date 1971, which as far as I know documents everything. But Jerome something

GC: Jerome Clark?

RE: Yes. But he talked to Bill…

GC: Moore?

RE: Bill Moore and Bill Moore said no, it can't be 71. It has to be 64. So they put it in the article. I called Jerome and said, “Where did you get the 64. I told you he was 71, and he said, “Bill Moore thought he was. What does Bill Moore know?

  C: And Bill Moore gets it from Richard Doty. Doty changed the date.

RE: That's just crazy.

GC: The second one they turned the date on was with a live alien story. I don't know how many people have told you the story of the living alien.

RE: I can tell you. People inside. The people I dealt with never mentioned it. I'm talking about my friend Coleman.

GC: At the beginning of the day? But when in the 80s when you were offered

RE: Yeah. Your right. Someone said you might meet an alien down in New Mexico

GC: At Los Alamos. The first one, I assume you didn't get involved. The first was the story that a living alien was found in 1949 and died in 1952. This is the story Richard Doty told Linda Howe and Moore also published the story. Now some people have changed the date to 1947 so the dates keep changing. You try to follow the story and it always comes back to a legitimate government person and then you wonder who is really behind it. That's what I'm trying to figure out. Why are you, Linda and all these people contacted? It must mean something. It has been going on for 50 years.

RE: I agree. I haven't watched anything on it except when people call, which I'm very happy about, although I have to say I talk to Coleman quite often and I was talking to a friend. I often arranged for people to go and interview Bob Friend. I knew Hynek. Like I said, he stayed at our house. Other people I didn't really hang out with Moore or even Linda for social stuff.

I can tell you an aside that may amuse you in the last moments you speak with me. I love playful things. I once said to Linda, “By the way Linda. Jacques Vallee and I saw some aliens in California.” She said, “Did you know? But what did they look like?'

I said, “Well, you know they weren't very tall, they had curly hair.” She obviously believed and found out maybe a year or two later when she brought it up. She was so upset and it was like, Linda! Have a good sense of humor. God she was into it. Maybe she was calling Jacques. People want to believe that. I wish I could see something. I've seen enough evidence that if you tried it in court or in a court of law, you could prove that this phenomenon absolutely exists. I remember that not everyone denied it. Just that it "has not yet been shown to be a threat to our national security."

Anytime I can be of any small service to you, please call me.